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Just as a point of discussion - the reason the silouette is rotated in such a way, is because at that orientation, that is, bascially, the way the map would appear in game (if we assume that Tenebrae is in the south, and the Avatar makes progress from there, Carthax Lake is roughly north-east of that, while the Halls of the Mountain King are due west of the city. Besides, its looks better up that way! ;)

Hmm, this talk about the golden and beautiful past of Pagan isn't really appropiate. Sure, it was better than when the Guardian came. But there seems to have been considerable infighting amongst the Pagans - Khumash-Gor unified them briefly, but his empire didn't survive his death.

Pagan-Sosaria speculation in Notes section Edit

I have to say, I get uncomfortable whenever I see a sentence that begins with, "It has been speculated that..." and this is no exception.

Firstly, I've pored over the maps and I see absolutely no resemblance between Pagan and the Lands of the Dark Unknown. I'm guessing the part about the Tokuno Islands is used as some kind of process of elimination, but I don't see how the lore behind a UO expansion bears any relevance to Pagan or Ultima VIII.

Secondly, Richard Garriott is on record saying that Pagan exists in a completely different reality from that of Britannia, Serpent Isle and Earth. I happened to cite that particular quote just last month at Talk:Hallway_of_Worlds.

I'll admit the part about the alphabet is interesting, but is it really enough on which to base a theory of this magnitude?

This would all make a great premise for fan-fiction but is not, I feel, appropriate on the wiki. If Origin had really wanted there to be a connection they could have easily done it. That's exactly what we got with Serpent Isle, after all. --Terilem 13:51, October 10, 2010 (UTC)

I agree that it's a pretty big jump in logic in this scenario. Far bigger than in the case of Mordra. Dungy 14:31, October 10, 2010 (UTC).
It's times like this I'm tempted to see if we could invite Sheri Graner Ray to these discussions. If her blog is any indication, she seems to have a pretty clear memory of her time at Origin even after this long. I can't help but think her involvement on SI and U8 would be rather enlightening. --Terilem 14:52, October 10, 2010 (UTC)


I agree - I've never been fond of this part as well since this is all speculation that is not based on much. It actually reminds me of the Gargoyle Land article which at one time had a speculation about how they could have been one of Sosarai's Lost Land - and we removed it because this is just baseless speculation as there's really nothing pointing toward that ingame. This is the same thing here. I mean the Archaic Runes is a good argument but it feels too little to base a whole speculation out of this.
I do tend to feel that Pagan is often suggested to way too much speculation on account that it got "plot cuts", notably when it concerns relations to previouses games such as the Blackrock Serpent or Elerion (altough I believe the Elerion thing has been fixed)
On side note while I feel these are interesting, I don't believe we should necesarilly consider canon content from developpers interview for wiki stuff, especially considering how these comments tend to change and evolve over time - but really stick to what is ingame, only just possibly include bits from interviews as trivia --Sergorn 14:57, October 10, 2010 (UTC)
Well yes, obviously the games themselves and other associated official content are the prevailing source of canon. In refuting a theory as tenuous as this, however, I thought words from RG himself wouldn't go astray, given that it's not something addressed in-game. --Terilem 15:14, October 10, 2010 (UTC)
On a personal level, I actually *do* tend to consider Richard Garriot's word as gospel and canon actually - this is why for instance that I consider the Guardian's origin as laid out in the Ultima IX clue book to be the "true canon" of the series. I feel this would raise some (legitimates) concerns on the wiki however, because if we follow that logic then we should just state as fact that Moonstones are made of Blackrock, that the Shadowlords really reformed as the Guardian after Ultima V and kept their influence on Blackthorn and other stuff like that which are obviously considered as fact by Garriott but just don't appear in-game. I wouldn't mind personally, but it would feel a bit off on the wiki, which is why I've usually stuck to bring such information in trivia bits rather than the article themselves --Sergorn 15:21, October 10, 2010 (UTC)
Though I think it would be great if we could communicate with RG or SGR, and I encourage anyone who may try to, I just axed this section, according to the previous talk. Actually, I almost axed it a long time ago along with similar spectulation from the Realm of the Gargoyles, but probably because of the runes thingy I decided to let it be for a while. But I guess it had been enough time now.--Sega381 17:38, October 10, 2010 (UTC)
I've actually tried contacting SGR at the same time as Bill Armintrout regard some SI and Arthurian Legend stuff. No reply as of yet, but I'll let you know if anything comes through. --Sergorn 18:10, October 10, 2010 (UTC)

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